Ben Lee

Part 1

0:00Are you still living in Australia? Are you living down under Earth? I live everywhere. I don't have a home. So I just sort of wherever I'm needed, like wherever I go, I'm at home, you know? Oh, that's nice feeling I'm in the road. Yeah, it's good. I'll play this song to start off. Okay. I want to play my favorite one and then I'll let you pick the next couple. Okay. Cashline is even and I cannot stop listening to it. Right on. I think it's fantastic what's it kind of. It's neat. How did you write it? Ah, I don't know, you know. That song... My guitar player was playing that kind of progression, you know? It was sort of just like a stand in Motown kind of progression and that just came into my head, that line, my head is a box filled with nothing, you know? And it just sort of like spurned the rest of the song and it was just cool. You know, we were backstage in Pomona and a fan of Planet Show that I was last there tour

0:45and I just had this celebratory feeling. Where do you have to be on say line and get Charlotte? Is that what you were actually listening to? Now that just came up, you know, the original improvised lyrics were, they're the new single by Good Charlotte, the FM radio will play it. They don't play me on the radio because I'm gay. But, you know, that didn't really suit the recorded version. So then I just freestyle and just came out with all those bands. Very nice. What's playing here and there, 88.3. That's the way I like it.

1:59That's the way I like it. The winter is long in the city. That's the way I like it. So, please, I like it. That's the way I like it. She told me about the winds from Santa, and that's the way I like it.

2:49That's the way I like it. She told me she loved me like fireworks. That's the way I like it.

3:50Good Charlotte on the radio. I can't. They play Sleepy Jackson on the radio. I like it. That's the way I like it. I can't be on say on the radio. That's the way I like it. That's the way I like it. They don't play me on the radio. That's the way I like it. I found him good, grabbed him in the up.

5:31He killed him in the up for a while. Oh yeah, I've been going to India the last few years. I've been studying with a teacher there named Narayani Arma. For what's the matter, for music? No, no, just for life, for a heart. To keep the heart healthy, you know? Yeah, it's kind of like the needle a little bit. Well, you know, I don't know, like these kind of things. You never know what anyone else goes through. I know they went to India, but... That kind of thing, like a logical experience, kind of? You know, I think the spiritual, any kind of real spiritual work is like beyond psychology, you know? Because psychology is focused on the mind. Yeah. And you know, why you think something you do, why you do your patterns. For me, spirituality is the same as music. It goes beyond that, you know? It's about, it's just about a kind of acceptance and surrender, you know?

6:19So that's the same thing as in music. You know, you just surrender to the music. I think most people heard you two seconds ago, a cast on a two's song. I love that tune I can do. Exactly, you know, man. It's always a thing to catch my disease, it's an infection, you know, to surrender. I'll wait for the news to leave some new records. Yep. Recorded by North America, Australia. Yeah, in LA. Oh, nice. Yeah. Nice to produce it. Brad Word, who I've worked with, made a few albums with him, and that's great, you know, because I've known him for so many years, like for 11 years or something. Oh, wow. And he's very comfortable. How do you go about taking a producer to the label? Have you had with that or do you already know? No, I didn't even have a label when I made that record. You know, I just paid for it myself. Oh, nice. It was just that, I just kind of knew I wanted Brad to do, you know, because I'd worked

7:07with him when I was 15 and still 18, you know, and I just got, we had such a homey vibe, you know? And I really wanted the record to feel like home. I wanted to feel like going home. Does it? Yeah, I think so. Cool. There's a question on the message, what I posted a message to it in the same hand, and then I got a message. Yeah. And one comes up. Do you ever read your message for it, actually? Sometimes it's kind of a thing where like I'll read it a bit, but generally it's more like a place I like to give the fans to talk about what they want to talk about, the music, the experiences that's not directly to me. Like if they want to say something to me, they can post it on my blog, you know, or something like that. But it's nice just to give them a bit of a space. But sometimes you wanted to see if they have the kids enjoying the show or the record or something. Well, we have a question here from Shoot, or Shoot in the literally around.

7:53Right. I'm curious as to what's going to happen to the distribution of your first three albums here in North America. And the students, since you bought everything back from Grand Royal, you can do as you see fit. Yeah, exactly. Well, they're going to be up on iTunes pretty soon. Oh, nice. So that's, you know, good for people with that kind of technological mind. And then yeah, they'll definitely be, I'm sure I'm going to like a certain point license into someone. You know, it's kind of thing where these records are now started to do better, you know, than any of my other records have. So assuming at some point it's like, then that creates opportunities for you to go back and share some of the older music. And it brings a kind of interest in it. Yeah. So I'm just waiting for that right opportunity. And then I'll definitely be making it available. Cool. How do you feel about your music? The illegal stuff, not the legal stuff. But why are you the people?

8:38I don't sweat it, you know, because like, I'm not interested in experiences, you know. And it's like, if people come to the show, if people are having experiences with the music, like, why is downloading different to the radio? You know what I mean? Like people listen, you turn the radio on, you listen to the video, you get over it again. But I just kind of feel like the main thing is just to create the music to let people have experiences. And then you can't be greedy about the money. But I know that if you do something with a pure heart, the universe looks after you, you know. So don't worry about the money. It's like, I just want to, I don't want to share the music. I like that. Morning become neglected, the radio show. And that's all I can do now. What is morning goes to

9:33the show? Yeah, for sure. Man, I'm not just playing music, you know. Anywhere I get the opportunity becomes fun. Let's play another tune. Yeah. Chills are 10 feet tall. 10 feet tall. Okay. Um, you know, it's just kind of a bit of a thing. Like when I'm about to go and stay, you know, and I just want to like keep, keep, keep bringing that kind of confidence. I always say in my head, I'm 10 feet tall, you know. I'm 10 feet tall today. I'm higher than a kind. I'm a side of life, a side of wake for five days and five nights.

10:24I've got a go-go today for everyone I know. It hurts to watch me grow. The blinds watch me grow. Hit the ground and I'm 10 times. Streets alive, it's people around. One nerd all before you know. I've walked away from my soul.

11:12I explain that no one can obtain. I've walked away from my soul. I've walked away from my soul.

12:20I've just pretend to be tall before that we also play catch my disease. One talk about the bends for a second. Yeah. How did you guys look up? Uh, well, me and Folks were friends, you know, because I supported Ben Folks five on the Reinhold Messner record and, um, and then me and Quelomette, Threven Dando. And then Folks was just like, dude, let's do this. And I, let's go do a tour together. And I said, cool man, let's do a tour, but let's make a record. So we just went down to Nashville and just wrote and recorded four songs in four days. Well, did you ever play them? Yeah, we just toured in Australia altogether. You know, we backed each other up. We were like each other's backing bands. That's cool. It was really fun. Is that ever gonna release on CDO? I know the studio stuff is, but I mean, you get that. Well, we made actually, we filmed one of the shows, but I don't think, I don't think, uh,

13:06I, I, I, I, I liked it, but you know, I'm more casual than I kind of think any of the other guys weren't so happy with like how it looked and stuff. So, but you know, who knows one day I'm sure it'll get find its way out. You guys ever get together anymore? Anything from T. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a kind of thing where those kind of things just have to be about spontaneity. Yeah. So if the feeling is there, I'm sure that could happen again. And you all, you ever play those tunes live at all? Yeah, I play Bruce quite a bit, you know, because I just really, I, I think that song and I wrote that guitar part and I just feel very connected to it. Well, why don't we play that one right now? Sounds good. It sounds good. It is the bent, the fruit. I think you should bruise if you are not some praise.

14:13First last mistake, it goes to the spot it said, first of first.

16:21But good, the interesting thing about in Australia was, you know, there's a national alternative radio station called Triple J.

18:00So it's kind of like, you know, like, if you get played on that, you're suddenly famous in the whole country. He's got what I mean. So, um, so it's sort of a different thing, you know. And that's a really, really liberal station. The government pays for it. That's really cool. But in general, you know, the radio in Australia have been really supportive of me. So, yeah. I was pretty much in the States, you know. I don't know if it's just, you know, a bit of fun, you know, multi-part finance. We do a thing on a show. 20 questions every week. 20 quick questions. One word answer. Cool. Favorite song to play live? Favorite song to play live? Beautiful by Christine Aguilera. What's in your senior player right now? Uh, come to the time, Neil Young. If you could play on anyone's album, who would it be?

18:46Um, play on anybody's record. I don't know, probably like Bob Marley. What instrument would you like, Glenn? Piano. If you could change any law, what would it be? Um, loitering. If you weren't a musician, what do you think you'd be doing? Uh, just talking to people. Uh, the song you've written it your most rather. Maybe no red angles. Favorite album of all time? No, it's hard. Um, favorite album of all time? Coach, why don't you put maybe blood on the tracks, Bob Dylan? Yeah. Leonard McCarty. Uh, usually Leonard, but sometimes McCartney. How come? How come?

19:31Um, just because I'm always less into form than me. Less into form and more into feeling. Favorite movie? Favorite movie? Um, I really like the Wizard of Oz. Cool. George Bush. One word president. Favorite drink? Um, what a... Alcohol or marijuana? I didn't do either of them. Cool. Favorite song to cover? Um, at the moment, lot of love by Neil Young. And one word, Bentley? Yes. Alright, take what's your favorite song you play? Let's play that one. Uh, I need you to play with me. We're all in this together. Cool. Thank you so much, man.

20:17Cool, man. Appreciate it. Take it easy. Work up this morning. I suddenly realized we're all in this together. I started smiling. Cause you were smiling and we're all in this together. I made of atoms. You're made of atoms and we're all in this together. Long division. Just doesn't matter cause we're all in this together.

21:04Are you walking? In the city, we're all in this together. He's changing. Cause we're changing and we're all in this together. We're all in this together. We think about jumping ship before it sinks.

22:20But we are all in this together. It's a scientist. It's quantum physics. We are all in this together. It's quantum physics. We're all in this together. Come on darling.

23:06It's alright. You don't ever.

Part 2

0:00Sitting here at Silent Movie Theater Los Angeles, California with Australia's Bentley. I guess America's. Standing here. Standing here. Well we're standing. Yeah we're standing. You said sitting. We're standing. I'm so used to saying sitting. Yeah. Yeah. Look I belong to the world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very nice. Right. Let's start the show with a song. Okay. Is it the new single Close Up Come? No. It's a good song around here. Cool. Awesome. They can play whatever they like. I'm into a house to escape my enemies.

0:53Open the door to another world. Buzz and whore versus brought back. Brink of destruction. Every time I'll smoke and mirrors.

1:51Fuck it. You just heard Ben Lee Close Up Come.

3:51Latest blog entry. Yeah. You're writing your blog a lot. Yeah. Is that a constant thing for you? Yeah. It's just like another form of creativity. I mean, it's only for the last couple of years because I didn't even know what a blog was but the other one did. Yeah. I was blogging before the internet. No, but you know the blog, it's like all these things, side projects, gigs, recordings, interviews, it's all part of the same thing and that's creativity for me. So I don't take any of them for granted. Each one of them I just try and express who I am in that moment. So it's fun. Pretty much like the new blog. It says new goals are being set for you. Yeah. What questions on these new goals? You work on new records? I'm going platinum. Like Kid Rock says. No, but you know, like really it's about I want to make music for everybody.

4:37So a lot of that is just finding ways to get my music across and those goals that I want to make music that means a lot to a lot of people. And I want, it's a big part of I think being generous as a musician is that you want to give what you do to as many people as possible that they can benefit from it. So the goals are just ever expanding my sense of connection. You know, then in the beginning I thought it was just music between me and my guitar. And then it was for me and my friends, girls I liked. You know, it was me and Sydney music scene. You know, it gets bigger and bigger. And now it's music for the whole world. Maybe as soon as it'll be for other planets. Well that'll be interesting. It basically seems like you've been touring non-stop since we last talked. Yeah, yeah. And even on the road ever since. Yeah.

5:22I like it. Yeah. Because that's a good way. Everybody wants to be useful. You know, and for me the way I'm useful in the world is by touring and bring people joy through my shows, you know. So why would I stop? Fair enough. When do you plan on stopping? Is there like an end for this tour? No, it's like a little break at some point. I'll know when it's time to make another record. Because I follow the signs from the universe, you know. Yeah. So at some point I'll just get signs to make a new record and then I'll make one. So take another little break. Fair enough. You gonna pay for it all yourself again? Who knows, hopefully not. Of course. That's never anyone's first choice. You never like, geez I really look forward to making another record and mortgaging my house again. I'm sorry. No, it's alright.

6:07I'm just playing another song, an old one, running for scissors. Running with scissors. Running with scissors. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. I just like the song. Sweet. Running with scissors. Last time you were going to show you said you want to learn piano.

9:39Yeah. I've been taking that up a lot. No, no, no. I don't know. I don't know. I just want sitting out there. Yeah, I might give a little back and play Home Sweet Home by Motley Crew. Oh, very nice. Yeah. You should play that on your show. You should give it a try. I haven't played any Motley Crew ever but if you want to, Motley Crew, here it is. You should turn some Motley Crew, request by Benley. Yeah, great. So you turn with the full band or just yourself? No, well John, it's a mix. It's me and Lara. Lara plays keyboard for me but she also now sits on the cajon. She's a Spanish percussion instrument. She plays with her feet, you know. Oh cool. Ed sings and plays keyboard. She does everything at the same time. So she's like a one-man band. So you know why it is? Yeah, it is like me and a full band but it's just got one person in it.

10:27That's great. How'd you meet up with her? We met when we were both playing in bands in Sydney when we were young. She was in a band I got lost to four. And I was in Noisadic and we did shows together and stuff and just connected right away. Very nice. Any reunion for the band's possible do you think? Yeah, there will be something at some point. I did a show with Quelor a few months ago. I'm doing a show with Folds in a month. It's just, you know, it's when the moment is right. You know, when the synchronicity happens, exactly. Cool. You want an area? A whole bunch of areas. Yeah, yeah, one for four of them. Four of them, do you remember what they all are? Best song of the year? Yeah. For one song song? The catchment is easy. Male artist, independent record, and album cover. Album cover?

11:12Yeah. It's a pretty basic album cover too. It's not going to be my own. It's from the heart. It is from the heart. I heard you went back to India's. But actually, you know what? Let's play catchment. Let's play it. Australian song of the year. Woohoo. Woohoo. On the radio.

14:13That's the way I like it. I hear Beyonce on radio. And that's the way I like it. Because that's the way I like it. It hurts like me. Well, like you said, Australian song of the year.

15:39Cashmine is easy as Bentley. You went back to India. Yeah. To get the heart healthy, as you said, last time you were on the show. Yeah. How long were you there for? What do you learn? This time I was here for a month. you know, when I go to India, it's not even just India, it's just in general on the spiritual path, you know. It's about how to be of service, you know. That's what I think really spirituality, like, everyone talks about it as if it's like just about meditating and praying or something, but spirituality doesn't mean anything if you're not putting into action to change the world, to help people, you know. So for me, everything I do, when I'm in India, when I do my own, you know, chanting, like all that sort of stuff, it's just to find more and more effective ways to give more to the world, you know. So that's what I'm focused on when I do those sorts of things.

16:24I like to get into that. So how do you get into it all? Well, it started really, probably with qigong, which is a Chinese martial art that I do, but I started doing when I was a bat-19, and through that master, Nanlu, I went deeper and deeper, and you know, these things, it's like Alice in Wonderland, you go, you fall down the hall, and then you never get out. Cool. What else did I want to talk about? Two in Australia, back in October. It's like a homecoming for you, kind of? Yeah, it's fantastic. I mean, we did this big tour with my friend, Missy Higgins, who are very popular in Australia, and we did this, we did huge concerts, you know, between the two of us. We did a big in Sydney, my hometown, we did 19,000 people in like our equivalent, you know, central part of the park. Oh, there's a photo of on your website? I've never seen that. And that was just something, you know, like really a feeling of, not victory, but just knowing that things are on the right track, you know.

17:19And I'm going to go back again in July. I mean, I keep touring there because there it's really mainstream, my music, you know. So I get a chance to play for little kids and families, and it's really, then you get the message of the music. Is your family still out there? Yeah. So you get to visit them. Yeah, exactly. You mentioned changing the world a whole bunch. You think music's ever going to be like that again, like the 60s, where it actually affects people that much, it seems to not really be doing that. No, it does. It just doesn't affect collectively, right? Like in my life, I can list you 10 records from this year that have changed my life. You could probably do the same. The greats. I'm coming up by the greats in Australian bands. The album's called Gravity Won't Get You High. It's a great record. You should check that out. The whole thing is, do you get the collective experience, right? Of like the Beatles or, you know, Bob Deilina?

18:11Bob Miley, that just depends if the world needs it. I think it's like those people come. It's like an answer to people's prayers. Yeah. You know, so if the world wants it enough, it'll happen. You think we need something like that right now? Do we need something? I don't know about anybody else, you know. I would like to see it, because those artists move me a lot. Yeah, well me too. Let's close shop with a song Into the Dark. Yeah. A song from The Summer reminds me of The Summer. What do you think of when you go to the song? I think of writing it at my friend's house in LA, where we are now, and about how, I just wanted to write. This is a good song, you know, about that sort of thing, about spirituality, about surrender. And it's about a really, um, the joy of it, you know? And that's the thing is like, life can be hard, it can be tricky, it can be painful.

18:59There's joyous experience mostly, I think, if you go with it. So that's kind of what this song is about. Yeah, I do enjoy it. Cool, well, Ben Lee, thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Part 3

0:13Are you changing? Are you changing? Are you changing? To know and to feel you're waiting while you're waiting? Why are you waiting? Just doing whatever it is. There are secrets, there are secrets that are secrets. There are places, there are places you can go to. They might tell you, yeah, they'll tell you that you shouldn't. Every is good to raise in little circles.

1:19There are reasons, there are reasons you can find out. So do sometimes laughs okay, let's laugh at how for us all okay.

3:52Pop songs, as far back as I can remember,

6:57there was a deep connection with the radio, you know, in the video shows that were on early in the morning, on the weekends. And I remember having, there was, my sisters had a lot of records. They were older than me, so they had Bowie and Roxy music and Fleetwood Mac. But I didn't really listen to them, but I looked at the covers a lot. And the covers seemed really exotic and exciting, seemed like they were from another world. I mean that was my first I guess encounter with rock stars, what that could mean. And the kind of music that was around the house more from my parents was like John Denver, Peter Pollum, Mary, you know, sort of melodic, folky pop sort of music. And so it was a sort of combination of all these things. And then like hearing Michael Jackson thriller on the radio and the pet shop boys and all

7:44this sort of really, what always caught me was, I guess it was the craft of songwriting from really early on and doing it in a way that was really accessible. I wasn't interested in drawn out long stories, you know, I wanted something, it had to be punchy and it had to be catchy and had to make you feel good and make you want to dance to it, you know, and still have all that pathos and stuff you want from drama. I played piano for a couple years when I was a kid, but it never rocked hard enough. I couldn't make it rock, you know, and I learnt Billy Joel, you know, I learned some pretty good piano songs, but still there's a great Eddie Isop piece, you know, that comedian where he talks about, he's like, you know, when you're a kid and you start learning an instrument, you just want to play sexy songs, you know, and you go to your teacher, you're like, come on, show me some sexy songs.

8:29So I don't want to know this, you know, this Beethoven, I don't want something sexy. I was kind of like that, the piano wasn't sexy enough. I was playing piano for two years and then I saw a magazine competition in like smash hits, you know, pop music magazine for, it was a to win an electric guitar and I entered it and I convinced myself so intensely that I was going to win it. But when I didn't, I realised, oh man, I really want to play the guitar and that was it. I skateboarded to my piano teacher's house and quit that and next thing I was playing the guitar. When I was writing songs when I was ten, I wrote a song where the chorus was, I saw her on the beach, she took me by surprise and then I noticed something strange, it was the fire in her eyes. Now, and it sounds funny, you know, but actually it's all there, isn't it?

9:18Like, that's basically a pop song and there was, you know, the mysterious love interest and the beach and, you know, that sense of reckless abandon. So I think already as a kid, I sort of understood about what made a pop song work. Really from thirteen and a half or so, you know, I saw Nirvana play when I was thirteen and that concert was a bit of a turning point for me because I got infected with that spirit of do it yourself, you know, which is what punk rock music really should be. And it gave me that fire that I should start a band. Yeah, I'm thirteen, so what, you know, like I don't know anyone's permission and that was a big thing about that punk rock music, you know, it all happened without anyone's permission, all the best stuff. So I got that feeling in me and then, you know, it took me about six months, I got a band together. The people in Noiset were not musicians, they were people whose older brothers had instruments.

10:08So that's who I asked to join my band. So they were my friends, you know, but I was, I was already becoming like a dictator, you know, I wasn't really a band. I told everyone what to play is it. And you put your finger here and then you put it here and then you put it there. Bang on that bottom, like literally we made our first demo with the drummer playing pots and pans, you know, you didn't have a drum kit. And I liked the atmosphere in the kitchen. You know, that was really good. Sonic Youth came through Australia and Thurston Moore heard that and he said I wanted to release, he wanted to release that record. So I felt like with that new flush of success it was time to graduate to a more personal space in the house for my recording projects. So I went into the bedroom where there's more baffles, you know, because there's more, you know, quilts and pillows and things like that. So you get a more dead sound. It's really nice. And I recorded a bunch of songs and I guess the Sonic Youth guys turned on Mike D from

10:57the BC Boys to my music. And that early stuff that what I was recording them was just on boomboxes. You know, I literally was, I got a boombox from my auntie from my bar mitzvah. And to that I would just press play and record and just record all those songs in there. And again, I was like, that was still the punk rock spirit. I was like, styled in matter. It was just the substance if I felt I had a song I wanted to sing with a story to tell. I wrote a song called Wish I Was Him and really it was just a general sort of archetypal kind of song about jealousy and about aspiration and guy envy, you know. And at that time Evan Dander was a really big pop star. So I slept it on the front of the demo. I was like, this is a song about everyone sucking up to Evan Dander. But really like Evan Dander was a really big inspiration because he was someone that was taking a lot of the same subject matter, a lot of the same energy.

11:44It was sort of like a darker kind of weirder left field perspective and putting it into a very accessible pop music that was really getting across the people. I got six different flannel shirts, air walks not thongs.

12:41He even understands the words to pay for the songs. He's got his new guitars toys. He loves smudge and the bestie boys. I wish I was him. He gets the girls' wish I was him. Now I've let you dig biceps and a masculine shout.

13:30I don't want to sound like I'm trying to be mean. But he plays guitar much faster than me I wish I was him, he gets the girls that he's paid I got some free, I wish I was him He is a no, I wish I was him I was faithful Grandpa Wood was a record that was really Mike D's idea from the Beastie Boys and he liked, I'd made him this whole tape of acoustic songs on my boom box

14:20and I'd sent it to him and he went on a road trip out of the Joshua Tree I think he said and he just listened to it over and over and over and he loved it so he called me and was telling me about that and then we were talking about the Liz Fair record, Exile and Guyville at the time which was a really influential record also interesting because it was kind of lo-fi and it was just had some really good qualities to it and Mike suggested the idea of getting me in the studio with that producer Brad Wood so it all just happened really quickly and I went over to Chicago for two weeks and I just laid down these songs I was surrounded by all these fantastic musicians like Brad and his studio with the guys from Tautus and all these sort of underground bands and Liz Fair was around Rebecca Gates from the Spinnanes and Red Red Meade and Sunny Day Real Estate came through

15:06and we had breakfast with them one morning and it was just this getting tapped into this world of American underground music that I hadn't experienced so directly and while I made that record it was a really really exciting time and I think that record really just reflects my enthusiasm for my sort of newfound freedom at that age I was only 15 but I was getting to do what I wanted to do a way with the Pixies was a song I brought in to them we recorded in the studio with Brad in Chicago and then there was a certain point where I just said oh we need a female voice for this and Brad said let's call Liz so Liz took me out one day I can't remember what we did, did some groceries or something and then yes she came by the studio and sang a little bit that's funny because you know that was a formative time in both of our careers

15:52you know Liz had her first massive record and the very influential I was getting to do this huge opportunity coming to record and now when we see each other there's still that feeling of that we know each other from kind of a formative time something to remember me by I made the week after I finished high school

19:04and I think the record carries that spirit you know a lot of people that I speak to that are influenced by that record or enjoyed it we're in similar times of their life you know and it's a record about feeling like a man but not quite being one you know like Alice Cooper I'm 18 I'm 18 I do what I can I'm a boy and I'm a man that song it kind of sums up the feeling of something to remember me by but it's all foky because I was really into loud and white and riot I was into Bob Dylan and Joni Mitchell and I was really stripping back my songwriting and just storytelling at that point and I was trying to make sense of the world that I was just thrust into you know as a young adult something about Mary used the song how to survive a broken heart and that got my music out to a lot of people and

19:50just toured with Say Anything you know there's a young band now and Max the singer said he fell in love with my music through that and through that song and it really affected him and so you know again like another early lesson in how my music was often it was more accessible than I thought it was you know you get the right moments where like the Farrelie Brothers really understood it or someone who understood it put it in the right context and it would really connect with people

21:06I'm breathing tornadoes was the record I decided it was the first one where I said

23:00I'm gonna go for it it was the first one where I thought you know what I like hit songs and I think coming from like the indie world or underground music that was sort of a bit of a dirty word saying hit songs into a spy to create pop songs you know it felt naughty but aired again you know he really pushed me into refining these songs and I kind of went for it I mean the rule for me at the time was I didn't want electric guitar on that record because I was just sick of it you know all throughout all the 90s there'd just been electric guitar bands electric guitars like I want to make a record with no electric guitars so we used a lot of keyboards a lot of acoustic guitars and it was a really fun experience and I think that was the first one where I really started stepping up to bat as a pop songwriter nothing much happens came from a conversation with

23:47Evan Dander at 4.30 in the morning on tour in probably an Albuquerque or Tallahassee or somewhere weird where you know they've been one of these strange surreal nights on tour of bumping into different characters in all different states of consciousness and you know these weird things and I remember turning to Evan at one point and said a lot goes on onto it doesn't it and he said yeah but nothing happens and I was like yeah that's a song I was like bag I got it I got that one dibs on that yes you was like it was my last little

27:51dribs and drabs of teen angst you know like I was like in my when was I was in my early 20s and I was not sure what was going on I mean the world felt kind of crazy my personal life was crazy they'd been not just my dad but I had a friend I have a heroin overdose it just felt I was frustrated you know and that record hey yes you it's working with dad the automator who was interested in dissonance and he said that the first time we got together and I think I felt dissonant you know I think I made kind of a dissonant record and the record cover is me broken up in puzzle pieces and I think I felt that way so yeah it was it was part of my process you know sometimes you make records just because you have to because that's where you're at and that's the personal expression you have to make so that was a record that it wasn't an

28:39easy time of my life and I think I was not an easy record but it was a record I needed to make it was sort of a no-brainer working with dad in the automator that it would have more loops and be rhythmic and but I was also I think I was interested in I am interested in having a music that has sexuality present in it you know that's part of with indie rock like often the sexuality gets totally removed from it and I think it's like bands pretend to be little boys and little girls and I don't want that you know I want to I want to be a man and I want to make masculine music it doesn't mean it has to be like Rambo you know it's not traditional aspects of masculinity but I don't want to hide from what it means that question of what it means to be a man you know so I think that was the beginning of me sort of also dealing with sexuality in

29:25my music and having a song like Dirty Mine and just having the rhythms that were they were sexual you know and that that is something that I'm beginning to find that sexual energy in my music in different ways in probably less obvious ways but it was still part of that exploration running this is also a song about embracing danger embracing vulnerability and you know the idea of choosing a run with scissors is choosing to things that would be dangerous not danger and rock and rolls an interesting subject matter because I'm not a junkie you know I'm not someone who slashes my chest up with broken beer bottles on stage but there's always an element of danger when you open your heart you know when you really reveal who you are it's dangerous and that's what I relate to in rock and roll these figures that put themselves out there put themselves out there for the

30:12world and took risks and dreamed big so that it would inspire people you know so I think running this is these are the same ideas I'm talking about saying like you know we're the ones we have to do this we have to take the harder path right now you know and I say on that song those sleeping hearts they'll never understand you can't hear the song until you dance this is the same thing I'm talking about on my current record you know being in life I don't want to be set back I don't want to be passive I don't want to watch the thing unfold I want to be in it so you can't hear the song until you dance I don't want to you know you've a lot of it's a big trend now in society whether you have like a there's a lot of clever criticism you know like pitchfork media or these kind of people who analyze intellectually a lot of music and they're very good at it is very entertaining but it creates a distance between you and the experience

31:00the visceral experience of a piece of art and I realize that I don't want distance you know I want to feel it man I want to be in it I want to make mistakes and I want to be clumsy and I want to be insulted by pitchfork and I want to be you know I want to do all the stuff that makes you uncool because that's how you know you're dancing we've already done a lot of touring

34:46with Ben Folds 5 at that point and Ben Quella had done touring with Ben Folds and me and Quella had done you know we'd all played with each other and then one morning I remember Folds calling me and saying look I've been invited to do this tour of Australia it doesn't so much fun to me I want to do something more fun how about the three bands do it why don't we do this thing and we can all back each other up and I said I'll only do it if we do some original music like let's actually be a band and record some stuff and write some songs and they were like whoa but we went down to Nashville and we wrote and recorded four songs each of the four songs on the Ben's record is such a moment bruised was great because I I brought in that riff and sort of the general concept of the song and I felt like Quella and Folds really took it and ran with it and opened it up to

35:31something more exciting India came along at the right time there's a saying they say in you know the

40:08martial arts when the students ready the teacher appears so I found that a lot with those kind of whether you call them spiritual experiences or experiences of guidance that you're kind of preparing for a long time and waiting for the shooter drop you know you're like wow how am I going to understand these new ideas that I'm interested in my life how am I going to make sense of these relationships this job is you know you're trying to put it together and then suddenly a door opens and that's the teacher appearing you know and I met this teacher Narayani in New York and felt a huge connection to her and decided I needed to go to India and spend some time with her and I ended up the last you know few years making four or five trips to India it's like it going to a rock show going to India it's just

40:55a feeling like you can't say you necessarily learned something or that something was being taught but being immersed in the energy of people who are committed to serving the world and to their spiritual path and to the idea of unconditional love and acceptance of each other and you know brotherhood of human beings I mean these are big ideas and when you stay at it I stay at a temple with people that are very conscious of trying to help each other and it's not religion you know it's not like needing to do this and that and don't mix these foods and go here at this time and that time it's not that it's uh it's service so in the beginning it looked like another world that had nothing to do with music to me but the more time I spent there and the more time I spent looking inward meditation in prayer wondering where I was going to take this

41:43next part of my life I realized that my music was service my music was my service so I wanted to make music that would give people positivity and give people hope and spy them into the dark was a song I wrote about I'd started dating somebody a few years ago and I was sort of nervous about it I felt like I didn't know if I could I didn't know if I could let this person in to my life I was very busy and all those kind of things I had a lot of excuses and I started realizing that like this was time to practice what I was learning spiritually right it was time to like open up and find out what was there you'll never know if you never go right so the song kind of became about both this girl and about a more general approach to my life I was taking which was I needed to start giving in I needed to start giving in to my passion

42:31and to my feeling you know so you could say is it about a lover is it about God is it about music it's all the same right it's the same approach like it was time to surrender I had said you can't climb until you're ready to fall whether that's fall in love fall from grace anything I needed to surrender surrender is possibly the biggest most complicated most exciting spiritual idea there is because in our society people look down on surrender like it's not a masculine thing to do right you meant to fight until the last drop surrender is not about being weak surrender is about going with the flow so surrender is important like you go with nature when you surrender when you surrender it's like it's not that you just say oh well I'm gonna let

43:16the world walk all over me it's say I'm gonna do what I'm being called to do by my inner spirit by my fire you know so surrender is actually very active to really surrender you have to really be living your life because you have to do what you're inspired to do and when I play at the rock show and I do call in response with the audience I surrender they are you know they they sing back I surrender even if they don't know what it means they know it feels good to surrender we all know it feels good it's like sex you know like you don't want to be in control you want to surrender you want to give into it it's like let it happen to you you know let the experience over take you and it's similar in music and spirituality that idea I can't explain how songs get written usually

46:40you know and catch my disease is no exception to that it was a very quick one I wrote it very quickly and it just felt good it was fun it was like you have some songs like we're all in this together or no red angles that sort of extrapolate on the meaning of these ideas you know and other songs catch my disease that just embody it catch my disease has no overt spiritual message or anything it's just the joy of playing music and of living and of loving songs and loving being together with your friends and I think that's why that song works so well that it's completely unselfconscious in that way the middle aid originally said there's a new single by good Charlotte the FM radio will play it they don't play me on the radio because I'm gay that was just my improvised lyrics but it didn't last very long also I thought it's one thing to have a good joke amongst friends but you know I'm out there trying to meet some ladies

47:28I'm a single man you know what I mean I don't know if I really want to be like putting that idea out there because I might like shave off all my chances I like it

50:19they play sleepy Jackson on the radio and that's the way I like it that's the way I like it I hear Beyonce on the radio and that's the way I like it because that's the way I like it they don't play me on the radio but that's the way I like it so Begin is about you know a friend of mine gave me a journal once that said

51:51the inscribe in the front the greatest joy in life is to begin and I think there are those moments whether you're going into a friendship or relationship a new job where you can be projecting so far down the line like oh my god I better you know like George Costanza on Seinfeld you know that kind of like worrying neurotic or Woody Allen like it's over before it starts because you've planned like all the ways you're gonna ruin it and it's gonna be awful and I think in that song you know the protagonist me is is asking for the opportunity to just let something start it's not worry for a second about where this is going let's just go there it didn't start that different the song was just a pop song but as we got into it it's had this kind of like petro boys or postal service you know feeling we were like let's have that you know 808 drum machine and that sort of thing

52:37and my favorite line in that song is I've had to learn how to sing successfully because again it was it was the one thing I never want as much as the music does have a spiritual message and all that and people know I'm interested in that I never want people to misunderstand that like to think that I was talking about austerity or dogma of some kind or you know for me the spiritual journey involves really mapping out what this world's about like having a passion for it and saying I'm gonna go make some great mistakes today and then letting it go and saying I learned from that you know so for me the idea of singing successfully that's a lot of what you know I think makes you an interesting person

57:18gamble everything for love was inspired by a roomy poem roomy was a Sufi poet I think 16th century and he had a line in one of his poems that said gamble everything for love if you're a true human being and I thought that and then he says and if not leave this place you know it's great it's an ultimatum to battle song gamble everything for love is that's the kind of surrender I'm talking about that's brave you know to really love it's so funny that like love songs I thought of as wimpy you know to me like jealous guy by John Lennon no woman no cry I mean these are very tough songs these are songs you have to be a real man to sing you know what I mean so that's the kind of love I'm interested in love that's like a fire that you know you've got to be strong to sustain

58:27everything for love tell me how you feeling lost and crossed in the places that you never knew to get through tell me are you gonna cry all night tell me the truth and I'll tell you the truth if you gamble everything for love you're gonna be a tea except for number one right love gamble everything keep it on the lock of key if you want it you can gamble everything love me well and I think I'm gonna set this thing apart because we're gonna gotta gamble

59:15everything for love tell me do you lose your wage then I'll tell you love gamble

60:12everything put it in a place you keep what you need you can gamble everything for love if you're free you gotta gamble everything for love tell me how you getting hurt isn't worth it tell me other people strange do they change tell me how you let it go if you tell me the truth you get more everything for everything for love

60:58debt collectors started from a dream I had in Austin Texas and it was a dream that I was crossing the Canadian border and Connor Obest I'd been hanging out with him the night before the night before I had the dream and then in my dream I was also the night before he'd planted some like prescription medication there wasn't mine in my leg and I planted it but he'd put it there and I crossed and I found these drugs and I was like no I didn't I don't do drugs and I think they must belong to bright eyes and uh and really that was kind of the idea came of like that feeling of panic in my dream you know in my dreams they're coming to collect I've got something that they want and I don't know what it is that was this feeling that suddenly the song became about karma

61:48in my dreams they're coming to collect I got something that they want and I don't know what it is but you hit it in my luggage like a needle in a haystack so I'm running like a criminal I'm sneaking around each corner in a foam but throw window and the air is cold around me and I'm running for my life borrow so I kissed you on the lint sleeping like a race force in the

62:39evening all that power motivation and endless broken moments and I don't know if I love you but I really want to own you and I've kept you like a secret from the moment that I found you we can make a deal Israel if this pain promise that you made me in a letter that you sent me from Chicago on a freezing day in winter

63:27little wider but it really doesn't matter because this love is not obedient it's got it's an agenda and it wants to take me over and it wants to pull you under and it would like nothing better than it tears but to pieces and I want to what it's told show is real ten fingers it's not really like an actively

64:20running label it's it was an umbrella by which I could choose to make this record on my own and I was with an indie label before this record and I gave them demos I knew how good these songs were and I gave them demos and they said we don't hear it so we can't give you the full budget we'll give you a bit less and you know everyone's telling me oh it's okay it's enough money it's enough money you can make the record for that I said it's not the point so the point is if they don't hear these are the not just the best songs I've ever written but some of the best songs I'm hearing right now like I knew that you know I was like these ones feel great this is the real deal if they can't hear that I don't want to take their money you know your money's no good here you know it's like that so I just said I'd rather pay for it myself I'll find the right person

65:05and it was a yeah number two in the charts and I mean it's massive the album with triple platinum in Australia won all these awards I mean that kind of success you know with something really becomes a phenomena and goes into pop culture that's really hard to imagine how good that is I knew people would like it look look as I can say all this about I don't know I don't know but the bottom line is I wanted to be a rock star from when I was a little kid so to some extent I'm surprised it took this look work of this morning I suddenly realized we're all in this to get I started smiling because you were smiling and we're all in this to get made

65:56of atoms you're made of atoms and we're all in this together long division just doesn't matter because we're all in this together walking in the city we're all these changing because we're changing and we're all three 12 seconds

66:45someone remembers that we're all in the kitchen of your red control apartment we're all in this together come on baby reach out and touch you I've got to start do you think about jumping ship before it sinks but we are all in this together

67:32as a scientist it's quantum physics we are all in the subway we feel like strangers but we're all in this I love you and you love her she loves him but we are all together you know baby there's never been protection in all the history of human connection come on darling it's all right to show me you don't ever