The Darkness

0:00That would be the first time I've ever done that. It's not too many of them. So that's the tour, how long have you been on the road? Um, two couple weeks now. We came out on the seventh and we did a acoustic session at Amazon. And then we went... Oh yeah, where's Seattle? Yeah, and then we went down to Fort Lauderdale and started properly. So it's been about two weeks I suppose? You get a break for Christmas after the Gaga run. Yeah. When did that end? That end is about... So we had like three or four weeks. But recently, so you just got off the road from a massive tour like that. Yeah. So what is that, I don't want to get to this later, but maybe we'll just start there. What does that teach you as a performer watching a show? I mean, that's got costume changes. That got dancers, it's got a band that's just like your band going all the time obviously. Yeah. But does that change anything for you?

0:45Is it performed? Do you see anything when you're watching that and say, maybe we can add that to our show? Well, I mean, it's a lot of production, a lot of money to spend on that thing. Yeah. And it sort of reminded me of like, sort of like what you'd imagine, what a Bongiovis show used to be like. You know what I mean? Like a big... You'd have a huge set that's in the stage and it's the concept that's everything. And then you'd have another one which is in storage. You know? And it's a lot of money. A lot of money to spend on something like that. It's a totally different world. And also we kind of, you know, because we got to sort of spend a bit of time with when we sort of recognised that... She never really stops working, you know, and just kind of like she'll do, always completely consumed and surrendered to the existence of it.

1:35And you don't know. I feel like you guys would be too. No, we are. But I mean, just not in the same way. You know, we're old fashioned and I, you know, I just very seldom tweet. And if I do this, I need to sort of inflate my ego a little bit. If somebody sets up in nights, I'll just retweet it. I try not to do that. But if it's like about the shows, I think that's crucial really. Because I want people to know that we're doing good work. But aside from that, I just don't really put anything of myself out there, you know. So you don't live it. I mean, I'm just saying that I don't know. No, you're saying you're talking about the new music industry model that it's going to be... Yeah, and I'm not. I'm not on Facebook and I don't. But I talk to bands about that all the time. The mystique of Zeppelin would not have worked today. Like, you're speaking my language. I wish it was like the old days. You go, you wish, okay.

2:20And I saw a piece, like one of those sort of think pieces about the music trade. And he said, he used this lovely expression, and mystery is history. And I immediately flipped to the back of the book to look at the classifiers and find another fucking job. Because I don't want to be involved in something that hasn't gotten really. So how do you survive in the industry now? We just don't sell as many tickets. We don't sell as many t-shirts. We don't sell as many records. I mean, on the radio as often. We've got no interest in being the boy next door. And we ever did. I think that was one of the things that, I mean, Vivana comes along and it's amazing. But what it sort of inspires is less amazing. And you can say that about David Bowie and all that stuff. I think in England, no aces came along and they were amazing. And it's one of my favourite bands.

3:06Yeah, me too. And I think that he's a great frontman and it's really awesome. But I think what people took from that was the boy next door can also play guitars and they don't need to jump around. They can just stand there with their anorax on and do that. And it's fine if you're a a aces, but annoyed me that the rest of the music trade was also doing that. And then came Big Brother and all this fucking reality TV. And I feel like people are more, well, I'm personally bored of it myself and I'm sure of people as well. Like nobody has spires to be different anymore and nobody wants to be weird. You know what I mean? But the people that actually managed to do that and be weird, they sort of pushed to the side of the mainstream I think a little bit. And you have to be really fucking amazing to exist properly within it.

3:53But then you get the cult following and maybe that's what you should be going for. That's what we got at the moment. Okay. We're definitely got that. Thank you. And we're very happy in that to be one of those bands. Because I think that's partly because the last album hasn't got a cleared single. It's like the first one. The last one you're talking about? Part of it. No, hot cake. Yeah, okay. It doesn't have a song in there that's obviously a single. It doesn't mean there aren't singles on it. There's no opportunity to go, yeah, it's the single. Let's get on the radio. So it's like a pop band out. We're trying to figure out where a lot of my favorite bands would even fit on a radio station anymore. You're not going to fit on the pop station. No.

4:38Inlet. Well, I don't know. I doubt it. I don't think many bands fit on a pop station anymore unless you're working five and you're going for that sound, right? Yeah. I mean, well, I guess on the rock stations if they still, but they take less chances. I programmed Rock Radio for a long time. And they take less chances. It's a lot harder to do anything that's just like you said slightly on the mainstream. I don't know if I had a question with that or a statement. No, it's interesting that you're coming from that perspective. I mean, it's so funny because they sort of, we've heard that they're using things like focus groups. Yeah, that's exactly it. And I even know people who use music groups to write songs. Was that what the Meatloaf experience was kind of like? No, I'm talking about something else which I'm not allowed to talk about really.

5:23We won't go there. Well, let's talk about the Meatloaf experience. What was that like? Going into that songwriter's camp like you hear about the National Way, things work. Well, actually, I think the reason why I was involved in that is because the first sort of thing was like, is the first sort of, they had a month of a songwriting camp. And the first half of that was spent with a lot of Nashville guys who really know how to write songs quickly and not necessarily formulaically, but you know, we reviewed them being cut, you know, and they know who they're writing songs. And I think you got a bit frustrated with that and needed something that was more performance-based. So people who are writing songs were traditionally like I write songs because we reviewed performing them and we wanted to get some of that. You know what I mean? You write songs with the performance in mind.

6:08That's not the name. So how does that happen? Are you thinking, oh, this would be a good time to do a jump karate kick, or this would be a good time to wail a solo? Yeah, definitely in solo. It's maybe not too much the choreography. Just the journey of it. You know what I mean? I mean like the musical, the musical, it's definitely one eye on that and won't for darkness. Not for other stuff, but sure. And so you've got a few people in like me and Eric Nally from Foxy's It was fun, you know. It's nice to sort of have the artist there that you write for.

6:53So you know what you need to do to get it cut. You know, you can actually have that immediate kind of feedback that's really helpful. Is it interesting to write a song that you know you can never perform again? Maybe you guys could, but it's not really your song. Are you ever going to play it? Or any of those songs? No. So they just go away. What's that like? As a writer? Well, to be honest, that's the right of, you used to do jingles. Yeah, well I didn't, you probably hoped those go away. I saw one of the IKEA ones, well I was really happy because the Schloembeher would have approached them. Yeah, but that paid for the first album. Right. Literally. I mean the money I got from that was exactly what the album cost. And um... Do you miss those days? Do you miss writing jingles? I do, yeah. Really? It was kind of like a brilliant existence because I had really good relationships with the solid advertising

7:41agencies. And um, without that, you can't interpret what they want. You know what I mean? You need to understand what their vocabulary is and try and translate it into a musical vocabulary. You know what I mean? Yeah. And you only do that when you work with someone for a long period of time or you have the client in the room. Mm hmm. Like we go. Yeah. So you either get a meatloaf scenario or you have people that you've worked with before. That's what you want. And so I was kind of, I got to the point where I was um... Getting paid really well just to do demos and a lot of them were like, you know, demos and a lot of them weren't getting used but it was fine because you know, that's just how it worked. Right. What's the cut for it? We got used to it was a bonus. Oh yeah, sure. I know we don't have too much time and I want to get to the record because there's a lot of cool stuff. Especially mentioning we talk about that communication breakdown and changing your life.

8:26What was it about that record? What was it about that song? Well actually um, it was getting back to the uh, focus grouping. Originally that lyric was um, until I heard the kick inside by Kate Bush on the TDK D90. Okay, so Kate, not big enough. That's fine. It wasn't deemed rockin' up. But you took it into a focus group anyway? Or did the label make you do that? No, it was a... It was Bob Besserine. Okay, so producer. Gotcha. Yeah. And he was saying he was pushing for me to find a more rock reference. That's interesting. So that was the second one. I mean what I love about that song though is not the kick inside but I'm not that album The communication breakdown is that it sounds really simple. It sounds really like you'd be able to pick up a guitar, walk into a pub and do it.

9:12But then you hear a million people doing it and it's very very difficult to put it off. You know, it's sort of one of those things that looks like a... It looks beautifully simple but it's actually really hard to capture that thing that they have. Well even trying to play drums along to your record today is a lot harder than I thought it was going to be. Just listening to everything going on is a lot of things going on. How long did it take to make the latest record on kicks? I know some songs are really old but from the time you guys started to do this. Well we did a bit of a month recording in May 2011. And we need the cult to do that. Who said let's do this again. Well I mean we've probably been writing songs you know so it was just the case with now what to do with all these songs.

9:57I mean he liked producing other bands and obviously writing's good whenever you can do it. And you know he was just collaborating on songs and we didn't know whether it's for the darkness or whatever really. And we had enough and it was sounding like a darkness record. We did a darkness record. But we did a month in May and then we planned to do two months but we stopped and started rehearsing so that we could do the festival thing that we'd been doing. And basically we were sort of reluctant to take the download off of it. Because we didn't want people to sort of think that we were cashing in or just doing something for money. And now I don't think we'd give a shit to be honest.

10:48But at the time it was kind of beginning. No it's because it had been a while and it was important to us that the perception was right. So we wanted to make sure that it wasn't going to interfere with the fact that we were doing an album and all that sort of stuff. We wanted to really stress that. So after we did a sort of festival-y run a bit of our own tier we went back in the studio and finished it off. How was it for you to get back out there? It was all to go about two months but it spread over a year for sure. How was it for you to get back on stage? You guys do a lot of athletic things. Like your show was a show. Were you able to just like I don't know when was the last time you played a show before that? Were you where you ran around as much? Were you able to get into it as quickly? Yeah, I've always been fit actually. Apart from those periods and I wasn't fit. I mean that was addressed during the interview.

11:33I addressed all that stuff. But yeah I mean I just it's like slipping into a bath really. But I think there was a slight-what hindered the development I think was this one eye on what people were thinking. You know what I mean? We were worried that we weren't as good as we used to be and we wanted to make sure everything was perfect. That's not how we used to do business. Now we're a year of solid touring. We know what we've done wrong really and that's what we care. It's really important not to I think. When we first kicked off it was like we're doing those athletic things because nobody else was and we just weren't interested in being like anybody else.

12:20And then I think after the break we were like oh shit we better do a thing. And that thing is just whatever we feel like. Yeah the costumes are a big part of it and I was watching a video of you and Amoeba. I can't remember what record you picked up but you're like I need to show this to my costume designer. I don't know if you're being cheeky with that or do you actually have a costume designer and you guys really plan out and all that stuff. Obviously I can't remember it was after you picked up Tom Petty one and that was one that I knew I should have written a down-up. I was like oh I'm not going to remember what it was. And now Tom's telling me. It's doing like a leather jacket with it. Sorry. It wasn't Tom Petty. It was after Tom. Tom and the damage for Peter. I love that hair. Yeah just very normal. That's a great album cover I think. The question was the costume designer situation.

13:06How important is the way you guys look on stage. Is that pre-planned every night that is different? Does it change from night to night? No I mean because I'm so... I know what 2012 is all about for us. It was us getting back into it. 2013 was us finding our identity again and holding onto it. I think last year I wanted to dress like I was dead for five years and then dug up. Effectively it was. I don't feel like that anymore. I feel like it's like fuck it with the darkness now. That's it. So it means flares, it means catsuit, it means...

13:51Where does that come from? That performance. I'm not sure. It might be my mum actually. Because I remember when we first sat down with a proper stylist and she was a friend from those stops and was working with Kylie Minogue and a lot of big pop people. And the first thing I said was I want to wear a cat suit. I'd actually tried to do it myself by getting leotard and modified but it was very revealing. It made people feel a little bit uncomfortable particularly in the front row of a pub gig. It's hard. No. You know the pub gig is difficult. And so I said I want to lace and leather cat suit. And then she just looked at me and said, would you really let me do that?

14:38And then we had a great relationship with her. She just always brilliant person to collaborate with. You know, come up with ideas and stuff. And always got it because she knew where we were from. She understood our upbringing. We just hang out when we were at school and stuff. So pretty cool. You reminded me, I can't remember what video I was watching. And then I saw a video of you playing with Brian. And I hear a lot of Queen Armandese on the record and things we call them Queen Armandese. They're not Queen Armandese but I think you know what I'm saying. But you're walking away when Brian May starts solo. You're not even watching him play. Is that because you would have fallen over and all what was happening to you right then? I don't remember that.

15:23You don't remember playing Brian May? Yeah, I've never been playing him. But I didn't even walk away from you. Well, you start, I think you maybe looked at the drummer or something. Like you, and I've talked to bands who have had these huge superstars play with them. And they find it difficult to stay in the moment if they start watching them. They feel like that. Well, the thing about that is that there might have been a conscious thing because what I wanted to do was demonstrate that to Brian and I'm pretty. You know what I mean? You're pretty. If that's the scenario that we're in. You know what I mean? He came to see us play in 2003 and said that Dan reminded him of Malcolm Young. And then he said to me, I'm not sure who you remind me of.

16:10In a playful way. And so when we performed together I just thought, well, I'll be a singer and he'll be the guitarist. Makes sense. So I didn't want it to be a Brian May fest. And he also didn't want me to say anything about him performing with us. You know what I mean? He didn't want me to say, look, everyone is playing there, you know, to the crowd. Was that one of those moments for you that you're like, okay, we've made it. Or was it just another night? No. It was just, he's been a friend of the band for 10 years now. Oh, okay. And we've been out socially, even over his house, and rehearsed him a few times, and jammed with him and started to write something with him. I don't know, it's just like a, it was just one of those, it was great because, you know, it was great.

17:00It was great for my family and it was great for all of the close friends who saw that moment and stuff. But for me, it was a gig. Which is always a special occasion, you know. That's not to play it down. Every gig is really important to me. One band told me every show is a no show, every show is a go show. And it sounds like you take it from the same concept. Yeah. I mean, the first thing I do is get in the building and have a look at the space and try and imagine what might happen if it's warranted. You know, because I don't like to plan things too much, you know, I don't want it to be contrived or, you know, I want everything to be in the moment.

17:47But it's important to know what's where you are, you know. Yeah, absolutely. And understanding where the balconies are, what you can climb up, what you can't climb up. Will the setlist change, given the space of the room? No. Okay. Setlist won't change. So how does the setlist get developed for you guys for a show? We just try stuff and then, you know, we keep the things that we enjoyed and get rid of the things that we hated. And we've just started playing Living Each Day Blind with a new album. I guess we're listening to it just now, yeah. We normally do it in, when we try something that tends to be Boston that we're doing. And we try to be in Boston yesterday. Is it right? Nobody hated it. That's a good start, no one. They're saying you got to go, so we do something called Five Questions. Five Quick Questions, one more answers.

18:33Road or Studio? Studio. Leonard or Materni? O'Connor. When you hear a song, it usually hits you for a spirit's melody or rhythm. Yes. Song you've written your most for. Music again. Cool. And one word, the darkness. Back. Back? Oh, I give in. Thank you very much. Thanks a lot. Keep going, but I think you got stuff to do. Keep going. All right. So the radio heads off. Yeah. Very different than their version. Not very different. Well, a lot heavier than their song. Okay.

19:19Yeah, but the bits are the same as interpretation of the riff. I think it's different in the arrangement because I've moved some of the lyrics around, you know. And I've cut out of verse. But it's an octave up. Yeah. It's in the same key, but it's an octave up. I mean, there's a lot of similarities and just a different approach. I heard it as a more fun song. So what do you tell him to say? The dark tunnel without the light at the end is what he called about. And I see a tunnel with light at the end when I hear your version. Oh, I don't. Oh, you still hear the song? Oh, yeah. It's helpless. I guess it's just the fast guitar as I just make things sound happier. I suppose. I think it's got triumphant guitar, so it's a big ending. But those live tunes, you know, I think the song, I think it's still managed to maintain the essence of the song.

20:11I hope it's happening. Yeah, absolutely. I just, I don't know. I found it a little happier. Maybe that's just me listening and playing drums along to it. I was like, you're kind of... You're probably happy with it. I am happy. Well, it's fun to play the big songs, you know. Yeah. As much as you know, Nighting Nighting Nighting is why you make the music. Yeah. Yeah. Love is a huge theme on the record. You're talking about Permittent Love, you're talking about Access falling in and out of love. But what I noticed in Love is not the answer. And this is how it sounded with the proper question. I don't know what Love is, but I know what Love is not. So what is Love not? It's a quiz you own on your own lyrics. It's not what you expect it to be. Yeah. And it's not... You have a load of experiences in your life.

20:56This is what I've discovered as a sober person, actually. Up to a point, I was self-medicating, you know what I mean? And I'm not sure if any of that stuff counts, you know. So from the point in which I was reborn... You got that what you viewed that way? Oh yeah, no question. I found myself sort of operating at an even keel. I didn't think I'd ever feel anything. You know, and I thought, this is actually what it's like. There's no such thing as just when you kid yourself and then it goes away. Yeah. And then you meet somebody and it all changes. And it is... I don't know where it's going to come from. It's just a remarkable experience. I know it's not. And that's all the other stuff.

21:42It's not boring. It's not Rose Petal's, it's not Peacock Feathers. It's not fucking... Always and forever's... It's everything else. Can you constantly write? Are you someone who's constantly writing songs? Thinking of melodies, thinking of ideas. No, I need a guitar all the time. Yeah. I do, I think of lyrics all the time. And what, dropping down your phone or something? Yeah, I normally have a, like, some sort of document on it, but it's gum-bing. But it's usually just sort of a couple of lines. We won't be any more than that until I've got a melody. And it's really hard to sort of nail that down unless you've got a guitar. And it's the most frustrating thing about travelling is that you haven't got a guitar with you. You know, even on the road like now? Well actually, two of us think it's okay, but you haven't got any privacy.

22:27So you need to be alone as well? Yeah. It's like masturbation. Ideally. Ideally. Ideally. It's fun to be alone. Yeah, it's a really enjoyable thing. How do you know? No, I'm not exceptionally. I think we're all out of those series, I've done that. How do you know where to put the vocal? Your voice goes high, it goes low, it's all over the place and sometimes. And I mean, that's not good, really. Yeah. But how do you know, do you test things out and say, well, maybe I should try it high here and it doesn't work. What are the situations of that? Well, when it's a me song or I'm writing through, like for example, the things I was doing by the land that I would meet with them. I would just literally... Really? Yeah. I didn't know that. First time. Okay. That's the one I said I was most proud of.

23:14Oh, you're really a... Oh, yeah, you're right. Yeah. Like when I did that, I didn't want to do anything else. I just write it and I don't think about the key. I don't think about that stuff. Just do it. And then when it's time to perform it, then the key will move around and we'll try different capital positions or different versions. We'll try different keys. We try every key. We'll go right through until we find the one where it sort of hits the emotion part of my voice. I actually think that the guys have a different idea of what my voice should be doing to what I've got. You know, I've done this is four opinions that all count. You know, four way partnership, equal partnership. And so three of them are saying, look, I've used to singing like that. So I'm fucking... Or I'll sing it like that. Yeah.

23:59But I tend to like to save my full set of hybrids and screaming for key moments. Whereas they like me to be in that power zone all the time. You know, can you keep up with being in that power zone all the time? I can. I just don't like listening to it. I mean, if I listen to a song that's like like get your hands off, for example, and then... So if I'm listening to that, it's really hard to relax because my voice box goes into like not a spasm but it prepares itself to sing along to. It's very hard to relax and I'm listening to my own singing voice. Are there tricks for someone who thinks so high during the dating? I mean, you talking this long is probably not a smart thing. No, it doesn't make any difference to me at all.

24:46Really? Yeah, I just... Oh, that's good. I wake up in the morning and I know immediately if I could be out of singing, nothing I'd do during the day will change it. I'd get up in the morning and if like this morning, for example, I knew I'd be able to sing. I could smoke 50 cigarettes and I'd still be fine. Has the cigarettes helped? You think? I used them in the studio as a trick because it makes... I've heard people that sing our songs and I've heard them do it as such a shrill kind of... with a real edge on the voice and there's too much, you know. So when I use cigarettes and the studio, it rounds it off nicely and it gives a warmth to certain syllables and certain areas of my range. It really sort of helps in it. It's not good for the breathing stuff but if you use it in the right way, it can be really effective.

25:32That's great. Trying to think well, someone who asks you. Is there anything I got out of here? Anything else you want to talk about? You want to keep going through the record? I don't know how much time you have. I don't know how much time you have. I feel like you should be busy doing things. I'm waiting for some vegan food to come. Let's talk about that. Okay. What do you know? I'm becoming vegetarian. Oh, are you? Okay. Trying to, at least. It's hard. So what do you eat? What don't you eat? I cut out red meat altogether. Chicken is, I don't know, once a month. Maybe trying not to. A lot of beans, a lot of quinoa. But a guacamole is also that kind of... I mean, you're just trying new recipes all the time. Sounds like my dog's being like in the room. Well, you know what? It was very difficult in South America. I mean, North America is a lot easier.

26:18To be honest, I don't eat as much as I should. But I used to sort of... I never used to eat cheese and dairy and stuff like that. That makes you produce mucus. So it's no good singing. And it's also no good for any sort of physical performance, because you never snuff all over your beard, do it. So that's been eliminated that years and years ago. So that was the easiest step, really. I mean, the meat thing, I had a long period where I was just basically tehreal. And then, for a few years, when we first started doing this again, actually from the break onwards, I was kind of like just a bit chicken like you, occasionally.

27:06A lot of avocados, a lot of salsa. But now it's full-on hardline vegan. Really? Really full-on. It's completely strict about it. It's actually quite a good... I think it helps me because there's a lot of things in my life that I've given up and never gone back to. And, you know, like heroin, cocaine. Sure. Thanks to see. Just as bad as treatment. Alcohol, right? Yeah, yeah. So to have something that's actually quite difficult to avoid, because in the olden days, the main difficulty was finding drugs. Right. Not finding them is easy, you know, because nobody wants to share them and maybe wants themselves in a precarious legal situation by trying to find them for you.

27:54Sure. It's actually easier to avoid drugs. But it's very, very difficult to avoid meat. Yeah. Now you gotta go. You got to go? Yeah. Sure. What have we got next? Let's see. It's kind of a bit... Okay. So I think it's helpful in recovery sense to sort of have something else to focus on that isn't... I found that as well I had to... I didn't have quite the drug situation you had, but I haven't spoken even about three months. And I hear you're focusing on not even the food, you're not thinking of the other stuff. Yeah. So I was watching on the topic of the drugs that was... It's actually kind of good. It's a good thing to have a positive thing to be a chance there to, because a lot of people who have been in my situation, they find themselves addicted to porn or exercise or something like that.

28:46I mean, exercise is a good thing. Yeah, that's a good thing. Good thing. I think for a while I was probably exercise a whole week if that's a work. But yeah, now it's just struggling to actually have enough sustenance to put a show on. Did you watch the Russell Brandon BBC documentary recently? I just saw it on the drug system in the UK how it's more of a... The US has it too more of an imprisonment society than a rehab society. I don't know if you want to give me your thoughts on that or not. I didn't see the documentary. No, I wouldn't know what the situation is like in America. I did... a friend of mine bought me that book, a million little pieces of James Frey book about his recovery.

29:35And when I read Brian Wilson's autobiography that was co-written by Eugene Landi, it sounded like he'd been kidnapped a couple of times. So I would hesitate to say it was different anywhere in the world really. The problems of the same and the treatments of the same, you know. Is rehab the right answer? No, no, no, abstinence is the answer. And they don't teach that rehab? No, I mean they do. I mean I don't need to print any of that stuff. What I think is people, out of a group of 20 people that you might be in recovery with, one or two will go out and continue to live in a stable way.

30:21Whereas the rest of them will end up back picking up again, you know. And the statistics are really, really bad. Which suggests that it might not be a reliable way of doing it. But for me it was just an opportunity to concentrate on it 24-7, you know. And really helped me, you know. I don't actually go to meetings and stuff like that. I don't do any AA or CA, NA. You've been able to just cut it out. That's great. Yeah, I mean. Except for people who probably ask you about it on a daily basis. Must be difficult. Well, I mean it's an exception to talk to you about it because I don't know, you just seem like you'd have a different vibe to the people that normally ask you about stuff like that.

31:13I used to get very defensive and I said I don't want to talk about it. If you don't want me to print it in at that time. That's quite scary. I just don't like it. I don't like it when people who obviously don't give a shit ask. That's the thing that knows. I mean I sort of feel like professionally. Well I mean on the physical and sort of spiritual way it was my, you saved my life. You know, literally saved my life. And I think that's not an interesting story for a lot of people. You know, they like to see somebody who's fucked up and stuff. I mean I'm kind of like five, well I'm seven, seven years in soon. And it'll be like I put a picture up that was kind of simulating.

31:58I say don't put this in. But there's a picture on my tumbler that may or may not be me falling off the wagon. And it's moving my trousers down with a bottle of sparkling wine in my hand. And it's not the most popular picture on my blog. It's like, I was thinking that there's something to that sort of, the Keith Richards thing and the Amy White House thing and all those things that people are more fascinated by failure than success when it comes to recovery. And in every other aspect of life they're more interested in success. Do you feel a responsibility to talk about it now that you've gone through it? No, not at all. No, the opposite actually. Do you put in that position of celebrity? No, I'm not a celebrity anymore.

32:44I think actually part of the reason. How come? I think part of the reason is because I say no to a lot of stuff. I have so many television opportunities. And you've said no. I say no to people who help me. In fact I don't say no. I say I'm sorry I'm rearranging my sock jaw on that day. And then I go, which day is it? I always do it in that order. But it's really funny. But knowing it'll help the popularity of the band you still say no. Well I sometimes dispute where it'll help the popularity of the band. I always think that for example, say it was a reality TV show. I think it'd be counterproductive in terms of the... There's a little credibility already. Yeah, sure. And there's been enough damage done to the band's credibility over the years.

33:33It's not just from everything we did. The music, the gig. No, I mean I think it's just credibility was never important to us. So it's also important that we don't play with it. It's also important that we just leave it. Other people decide. Interfering in that way. And existing in media in any capacity other than performing is dangerous. My opinion is the television trade is that it's more evil than music. You see that in your country a lot actually. Not so much here. Well the States yes, but Canada is not so much. It's more nature programming than anything. Yeah, yeah. Which is not evil. No, absolutely not.

34:19Let's go out to the songwriting. So where does this start for you? You're sitting in a room by yourself you said. Alone with a guitar. Yeah. And do you have a chord that you typically gravitate to? I seem to always pick up the name on it. I don't know why. I don't know why. That's where usually you try and press me. I don't know if it works or not. I don't know. I haven't got a favorite chord really. What it would be is like if I've got like a, it would be a melody or something. I try and find it. Find it and play it on the guitar. Okay. And then build the chords around the melody. And then words will come after. Or words will come from stuff you already have on your phone or in a book somewhere. And then you place them where you feel they want.

35:05That's if it's on a deadline. But the best thing to do for me is just have a, I've got a particular guitar that's really, really effective for songwriting. I don't know why. No, it's a strat actually. Oh, okay. Old old strat. Like a 71 strat. Like the Inge-Ae-Mells-Tien Strat, but not loose scalloped frets. It's got really round radius on it. And it's not something that I would normally play live. And I've been ready for a while. He wants to keep talking. I'll keep talking as long as he wants. So I just generally sit there and wait for something to happen. Like, I always think it's like catching butterflies. The moment. Sit there with a net and then wait for it to come past me. And the other guys will tell you whether it's good or bad. You trust everything. That's what I'm writing for me.

35:51And then I'll bring bits in if we need it. You know. Just genuinely collaborative when it's through the darkness. So everyone's together. Yeah, and everyone has ideas and you know, some people have more ideas than others. It varies from song to song. Like every song we've ever done has been, the publishing on it has been split. You know, on a song by song basis because everyone contributes differently to everything. Really? Yeah. That's interesting. Hmm. That works though. And then it's fair for everybody. Yeah, but I think it actually makes a little bit of, if you're not in good terms and it can make a bit of anxiety and a little bit of over assertiveness and the truth is a little bit unclear sometimes. It's good at the moment because we're all aware that we lost something that we're in danger of losing.

36:38You know, we lost it once. Yeah. So it's really nice. But I think it might be nice to find something that's more of a constant so everybody can be true to the song. So you're writing for the next record as that started? You guys have begun. Yeah. Are we hearing the songs live or are you saying you saved them? They're very much in development. Okay. So what are you writing for those? Love. And notice love is a big theme. Other areas. At the moment. Why do you love always big themes for every band? Well, I mean, universal themes. For me, when we first started writing about love songs, it was kind of like, I remember saying to Dan, you know, like, there was a lot of sort of a mystical cosmic flower, a flowery kind of terminology going on in songs.

37:25And it was always the one word they weren't saying was love, you know. And people would know about their girlfriends and their romantic situations and predicaments. And nobody was saying it. And I was like, well, fuck, can we just write some songs that got love in the title? And that's the first thing we did was we wrote love, love, love and feeling, love and the rocks and the ous. And I believe we think of love, you know. Those three songs happened quite close to one another because it was kind of like we were very determined to sort of be honest about what we were talking about and show it. But it spat it out like bands used to. And I think that was what went missing in the 90s. It was stopped saying the word, you know. And so it was kind of like when the word became a taboo, it was kind of like that's the thing that really started to turn us on. It was sort of be out there, be in the band that does what it was love song.

38:10And it seemed to work. People wanted to hear it. And then it became a habit. And I'm going to break it now. Oh, yeah. So, is it going to be darker themes? No. It's different words. Different words for each of those. They've always been quite, a lot of that stuff is quite dark. In some ways, you know, it's not necessarily happy. I mean, it sounds like it's joyous and stuff, but it's not always coming from a happy place. Loving the rocks with no ice is when the relationship is falling apart. It's kind of like a, and you're too polite if I can deal with it. It's like an English kind of break up song in a way. It's your play to deal with it, that's funny. I think we're like that here in Canada. Well, I've been in that situation for a period.

38:56Yeah, you're just going through the motions. You know, that's what that song's about. They're not always happy. Former company songs. Well, that has got some helter-scalters of dark songs. Although that's one. Yeah. I'd love to have a foot a thousand. I like a lot of this solo out there. You do? Yeah. That's the opposite of what most people will say. That's because they're too busy trying to be cool. Do you think so? To understand that that guy is a true artist and a quite brave person for the things that he sings about. See, I liked the... Not the jazz record, but I liked the one before the memory on the spot. I thought that was a cool record. It's different. It's an amazing musician. Real genuine all-rounder. You get a chance to meet him? Have you talked to him at all?

39:41No, I've never met him. But I would like to. I'm a big fan. You've always asked me what's the one interview you want to do. That's just set him up in front of you. You see his band live. It's looking great. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Everyone's live. Brian, Brian, Brian, they're a really brilliant guitar player. The whole thing's really well arranged. And it's a minimalist where it needs to be. It's fucking sprawling where it needs to be. I think he's really on it. It's really good. Absolutely.